my 9'3 has a 2" balsa stringer.
i left the board in its bag, a
medium-blue
proline model, strapped to the top of my pick up bed in 92 deg weather,
sunny.
it was hot, but a board has to be able to handle that and much more.
anyway,much to my chagrin, i noticed that the glass on the bottom of the
board
along the stringer, about 5 feet worth, delaminated....only from the
stringer,
the glassright next to it is still stuck hard to the foam. its almost like
i
have a keel now.
Yup- the foam holds the glass better than the stringer does...something to
do with how balsa doesn't take up the resin as well as the foam does, or
maybe (and more likely ) the balsa only bonds at the very top/outer layer
and then blows free...haven't had to deal with one for a while so it's a
little foggy as to just what happens.
has anyone ever seen this? is it from improperly dried or prepped balsa? Right...improperly dried balsa. Duuuh. I'm a damned boatbuilder, why did I forget that? Too many resin fumes, I guess.
A little moisture not only prevents the resin from penetrating but makes steam (it really does get hot in there in the pickup bed...solar reflector oven almost ) that expands and blows the glass right off the balsa. Doesn't take much, and it'll also weaken the balsa-resin bond into the bargain.
Now, balsa also sucks up water (from any tiny ding or shatter) faster than anything else known to man. Balsa surfboards...hooboy. You have to make them out of small pieces with waterproof glue between the pieces or else a little ding soaks the whole board over time. There was a balsa core 42' sportfisherman (Bruno and Stillman, if that strikes a familiar note ) that had a few pinholes...the bottom now flaps loose at speed. Looks like it has the worst burn blister in the universe. B & S went under and the boats that are now built from their old molds are solid glass. The Old Man and I did some work on a sister vessel, a workboat, with the same problem.
Balsa almost has to be baked and then babied until it's laminated. No exposure to humidity, tightly sealed etc. Otherwise..you've seen what happens. Then, if there is a hint of a ding..out of the water, fast. Dry thoroughly, then fix. If you look at older boards with balsa stringers, you see discolored foam all along them, right beside the stringer. That's the balsa, still trying to be a tree and transporting the water the whole length of the board..
needless to say, i am pissed. its a relatively new board, and to fix it will make it look like shit because the large T&C logo on the bottom will have the middle cut out of it. what is a fair deal, give the board back and get them to make me a new one? If you can, yes. Maybe skip the balsa stringer, though.
Also, if somebody in your area carries Destination Surf products...they make a great board bag, with a white sunproof (waxproof too ) Soilar Guard (their name for it ) fabric. I carry them up here and they seem to be very good. The Expedition model (1/2" foam, with the extra for the Solar Guard, in 9'6" ) shouldn't set you back more than $150, tops. With a fair profit for the shop included
Good luck
Doc
the glass job is really ok, the delam is on the balsa only, it bulbs out pretty good, about 1/4 inch, putting a lot of tension pressure on the surrounding foam/glass surface. if that doesnt delam, then you know the glass is really adhered well to the foam. other e-mail i have recieved have cited this is a regular problem with balsa, especially if it is not dried really well. the fault has to lie with the builder of the blank, who should be responsible for procurring and using only properly cured/dried balsa. Right.
suggested fix....if you drilled a couple of small holes about 1/8 deep into the balsa, maybe an inch apart, then glassed it, wouldnt that give you a better grip of the glass and resin to the balsa? in effect, you are giving the balsa a little extra porosity to increase the adhesion. maybe you could even drill them in at different angles to increase the grip strength. worth thinking about. Uhm...kind of a problem, really. What I would suggest trying, if you're willing to accept the delam in place, is this: Get hold of some Clear Coat epoxy from System 3 (www.systemthree.com if I remember right...just checked...yep ) which has a viscocity about that of kerosine. Steal a small vaccum pump. With a hole at the nose and another one at the tail, draw the resin through the delam. The stuff is so thin it should flow and also saturate the balsa: it takes 24 hours to cure, so it might also work as a bonding coat for a more conventional (grind off the delam and reglass over ) repair, soaking far enough into the balsa that it should prevent further, repeated delams. I have used the stuff (Clear Coat) before, for similar problems with foam-glass delams (heel dings on Stewarts and Hobies which are notorious for that) and it has worked for the two years since I did 'em. It is so thin that you can't glass with it...it makes too dry a lamination. You might also try conventional resin brushed on after thinning considerable with acetone so that it will really penetrate into the balsa. Might make for less bond problems than epoxy-polyester would. Now, the problem with the 1/8 holes, even angled, is you'd have to have some kind of microfibers mixed into the resin, as the tensile strength is about zip without, especially if it's a hot batch. Which, in turn, makes the stuff awfully hard to really get into the holes.
???
Hope that's of use
Doc
took the board into a local factory here, Henry Fry Surfboards, for repair. henry has almost 40 yrs in the business and his co-workers have 20+ apiece, all agreed the workmanship in the board was top-notch (i knew that), and that i am basically a dumbass (thats news) for leaving it in the sun in a bag. they enforced what others here have said, balsa doesnt glass real well and there is usually some moisture in there waiting for an idiot like me to subject it to 160F+ temperatures. they will do the repair job with epoxy resin that he claims will hold up better. i am not conducting any tests to find out. meanwhile, i will be riding my backup longhorn longboard this weekend..... Very good. In all honesty, speaking as a guy who does a lot of dings, it's not a repair I'd be real happy about tackling. With the resources of a real board factory it will turn out a helluva sight better. Also, as I mentioned, some of the epoxies will really penetrate into the balsa which will, as they told you, hold up a lot better than plain polyester resin.
Amazing, how hot it gets in a pickup bed or inside a car. I managed to cook a pretty good board a few years back, leaving it inside a hatchback , inside a board bag, that I thought would protect it. Uh huh...still have it, and i think I may just leave it in the rafters to remind myself what a dumbass I can be.
And, after recommending that you get a board bag with a light colored, sun and heat reflective outer layer...and realising I don't have one of my own....I guess I'm STILL a dumbass.
Hey, while I am thinking of it, how are Henry Fry's epoxy boards going these days? I remember a discussion with you on those and I wonder how they are turning out.
Best
Doc
"put the lime in the coconut and mix them both together"
wipeoutndatube2emailsurfgeo
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Wilson
Hi everybody,
Let me give you a Costa report then I need some board damage advice thanks
to
Continental Airlines (Maybe from Doc? Our Benevolent King of Dings). ..
Here's my damage question.
Despite plenty of packing material and heavy towel wrapping fore and aft,
both
boards got whacked on the tail. A little glass came off, not much. But you
can
see some delamination starting to happen on both. What should I do? Use
some
epoxy to go over the cracks and make sure water doesn't get in? Can you do
anything about an area that looks kind of shattered in spots? Should I
just ignore it?
Any advice?
What happens is when the airline drops the boards off at 25,000 fee above
the airport, they get beat up. The glass, being flexier than the foam,
buckles off the foam and gets to that delam condition.
Now, the foam underneath is likely damaged some, crushed and so on. What I
do is mix a thin batch of filler (cabosil and resin ) and stuff it
underneath the loose glass, making a slow batch so that it will really
penetrate into all the nooks and crannies. Tape the tail together, sand
filler and old glass to shape when it's hardened and then glass over the
whole mess to keep the strength and watertightness. Gloss over that. Done
right, good as new and the boards last as long as they ordinarily would..
Buenas
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Puleo
That board out west is probably pushing $2000.00 to collectors. You will
get a
lot of offers for that board " DO NOT GET TAKEN ADVANTAGED FROM ". It is
worth
a lot of money. This might stir up some controversy but there is a guy
from New
Hampshire that would buy up the whole vintage market if he could. What he
would
do is buy vintage boards from people and offer them s**t for it because
they
did not know what this worth. Some people went for it. I know some people
are
cursing me right because you now own a surfing gem that a lot of people
would
love to have. But get good money for it if you sell it.
You see I was in the vintage board market a few years ago and found out a
lot
about the market. I own a 65 9'8" Hobie I know it is worth $1500. This guy
from
New Hampshire tried to buy it from the guy I bought from for $75. I know
this
guy's first name but I won't mention it. Mark from the Nor' Easter has a
price
book on old boards call him up and ask him 781- 544 -9283. I also know a
big
collector out in Cal. so if you need help at all let me know.
Try giving it a slide those old boards are clunkey, heavy, and do not
turn so
well. But there is nothing like riding an old soul. I still ride my 65.
Sorry If I was offensive but hey " I had to say it ".
Enjoy the new old stick
I know the guy in NH..and a couple of others here on the Cape. They really
made things crazy for a while....and then the two here ran out of
money...heh heh. The '$2,000' longboards a couple of shops here had on their
walls wound up actually selling for a lot less money. Like half that...or
less.
As to the price lists that are circulating around, yeah, I've seen 'em. Bear
in mind that those prices are what the boards were bringing at the top of
the Southern California market two or three years back and some of the
prices are for one-of-a-kind boards. Tony's collector pal in Cal would be a
more reliable source for what you can really get for a board like that
today.
What's a board worth? What somebody actually pays for it...and only that. The books on 'classic boards' are a relative indication: a Da Cat is worth more than a Dextra, but the prices are like gas prices, they change all the time. Like I say, a board is worth exactly what somebody is willing to pay for it, not a penny more, no matter what the book says.
Doc
> Hey Doc, gotta couple of ding questions for you,
Shoot-
>
Over time boards develop a lot of spider fractures, some cracks in front
of the fins from hitting rocks, patches where you can see the cross
fiber pattern of the fiberglass surfacing, nothing major, but lots of
them. My questions are:
1. What do you fix and what do you leave? Do those spider fractures
seep water? Do you put a layer of cloth on these or do you just sand it
down a little and brush it with a thin coat of sanding resin. I use to
cut up single strands of fiberglass into small pieces and mix it in with
the resin to add a little strength. Ever done this?
I figure anything that gets to where I see cloth weave is enough to reglass,
while if it's just in the gloss/hotcoat then just sanding and then
reglossing is enough.
I have seen a little glass added to resin the way you describe...that, in
fact, is what solarez is (answering Chris' question..also see
http://jfmill.home.attbi.com/dings/ding1.html#solarez) if you use a UV
curing resin. It may add some strength, the thing is that unless there is a
lot of fairly long fibers in there, I don't think it adds all that much.But
if there are a lot of fibers in there, well, it's hard to use as filler.
Kinda nice for hot batches of filler though, as otherwise the stuff can
crack. They use it in autobody work a lot. .
For hotcoating or glossing, skip it. It makes it real hard to get a smooth
finish and sanding the stuff is misery.
2. How bad does the ding have to be before you dig it out enough to
put cabosil in it? My threashold is when its soft to the thumb, I dig
it out. If it is still firm, I'll coat it with resin, perhaps a little
glass and leave it..
Bingo! You've got it. If you have a slow-leaker that has gone soft, then by
all means dig it out and add cabosil; being sure to get rid of as much loose
glass as you can, as this is what starts big delams. When the glass gets
loose and then works a bit, it starts loosening all the glass near
it...eventually, big water filled bubbles that can't really be fixed. I like
to use a wet cabosil mix on this, lots of resin, not all that much cabosil,
so it will really penetrate and get into all the nooks and crannies in the
foam and glass and make a really good bond. Use masking tape to make a mold
so it will have the right shape and all.
It's getting time to strip the wax off my short boards and fix the
little dings. Thought I'd ask the resident surgeon before I picked up
the scalpel.
This is the best time to do it, when everything is dry and resin goes off
slow...it's stronger that way.
While I'm at it, Chris Davies wrote:
"Has anyone ever used that product called solarez? If so how is it? "
Not that great. It is a temporary fix that really isn't all that great. It
often leaks , and when I have to grind it out I have to charge more and rip
out more. For small dings, I like duct tape until you can do it right...or
get it done right (you wanna know how? See
http://jfmill.home.attbi.com/dings/dingdex.html for far more than you
ever wanted to know ).
" Also, I have a bunch of those dings that are just dents, what should i do
with those? I have a big one from my knee when i pulled out of a wave at
matunuck and fell onto my board."
I have a few on my boards...mostly from things like my head. Which explains
a few things...
These are, or were, called 'pressure dings'. My oldest board...the bottom
iis all one big pressure ding, so that the stringer is like a keel. If they
are not spider cracked, as described above, I leave them alone. If they are,
sand lightly and regloss, adding cloth if you feel like it. Except...
The big one on the deck...that may be a leaker. That one, after dewaxing and
washing off all the wax residue with acetone (see the ding pages cited
above...nasty stuff, acetone) ...then sand lightly and glass over it. Then
gloss it, after sanding the edges. Decks take a lot of abuse, heels and
knees and heads and all, so I don't take chances with 'em.
"Thanks a lot,
You're welcome.
Now, as I was up at oh-dark-thirty to catch low tide and a bunch of
shellfish...and the waves suck (it was about 6" at 5AM)...I need a nap.
Schoolie striped bass are jumping in the bay...bring your fishing pole.
Doc....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzz
----- Original Message -----
From: David Telep
Anyway, I let my buddy borrow my fish and he busted one of the twinzer
fins, knocked it loose. So doc, I need some more advise.
Advice #1...don't let buddy borrow it again..
I imagine that I need to cut the fin out and reset it rather than just
oozing some resin in.
I figured I'd cut it out with a razor knife to
get a good clean edge, clean up the fin, fill it with a cabosil mix (hot
or slow??), set the fin, and then reglass around and slightly up the
side of the fin say an inch or so. How am I doing so far?
Not bad. I like to reset the fin in five minute epoxy rather than cabosil,
as it's faster and it can fill a little better. Now, sometimes putting
cabosil or epoxy in can screw up the camber, as you mention. In that case,
I'll grind the fin free, grind all the old glass off it and grind the area
flat. Then, epoxy it on (use cardboard, like shirt/drycleaner
cardboard---stiff enough and it cuts with scissors) to make patterns that
you use to reset the fin. I usually work from the stringer and the
uncrunched fin.
I like to use glass rope /fin rope / plain fiberglass filaments to fair the
base/fill in the corner. That I put on with gloves and fingers as no other
tool really gets in there right.
Sand it, glass cloth over. I use a 2" wide strip each side followed by a 4"
strip, centering them (folding the cloth) on the fin-board joint . Get all
the bubbles out (a brush is best) and let it run past the ends of the fin.
Doing both at once is okay. When it gets to hard gel, cut with an Xacto
knife to the shape of the fin. Sand, gloss, you're done.
At the factories, I am told they use hot glue guns to set the fins. Seems
like the best way for production work.
I was wondering if you had any tricks to setting the fin up so that it
doesn't drift in the resin mix and fuck up the camber before it sets up.
See the pattern thing above.
The other thing that looks tricky is trying to sand between the twinzer
and the larger fin in back of it. I considered a dremal but I'm afraid
it might gouge it.
Yes it is. I like what are called 'detail sanders'...Ryobi makes a cheapo
for about $40 that does a good job on this sort of thing. And, as you're
just doing the one fin (unless you let buddy borrow it again) ...there is
always hand sanding...
I'm also wondering if I should just take it to a shop, if it's the kind
of thing where you need to have the right tools and have done a bunch of
them to get it right. I'm pretty confident in my dingrepairability but
I hope smart enought to know when I'm over my head.
So what are the doctor's orders?
Oh, I dunno. My ding shop is backed up a ways just now. Why not do this,
start it as suggested above and zap me any questions you have as you go
along. You seem to have a pretty good idea of how it's done...go for it.
Doc
> I imagine I could get some fin rope from any surf shop worth its salt.
Does it
come in different thicknesses and if so, which would be appropriate for a
twinzer fin?
Uhm...you can, but I should have mentioned that glass rope/ fin rope/
filaments are just that. Easy way to get 'em...cut some cloth into strips
and comb it out...with a comb you're none too fond of. If you can get some
scraps of what is called 'woven roving', used in fiberglass boats- it's like
a really heavy, coarse cloth, it's easier.
To make it thicker, just cut fin base length segments of the fin rope or
filaments and double them or triple them up. The basic fin rope is too thin
to really work well. I like a wad about three eighths of an inch in diameter
for trifins, try half that for the twinzer bases. Have more ready on hand,
so that you can add it if you need to.
They add zip for strength, by the way, just that as filler/resin holding
material they are nice because they hold resin and effectively disappear
when resin-saturated.
>
> > Oh, I dunno. My ding shop is backed up a ways just now. Why not do this,
start it as suggested above and zap me any questions you have as you go along. You seem to have a pretty good idea of how it's done...go for
it.
I should also have added....after all, that's how I learned. That's how
anybody learns anything...try it and see if it works.
Doc...
Gleshna99 wrote in message
(concerning using the spray insulation foam called Great Stuff for surfboard repair)
do you still have to glass or at least resin-over the "great stuff" or is
it
non-porous as it is?
It looks and feels just like Clark Foam. You need to treat it the same
aka
glass over it.
My guess is that it is or is very close to the ingredients of Clark Foam.
Boat supply shops use to sell, and probably still do, something called A/B
Foam. Mix it up and it would expand by a factor of 4 into foam. Again
much
like Clark Foam.
Wooomp.....and then they start all over again.
You can indeed glass over the stuff with standard surfboard resin....I think
the A/B is a polyurethane foam...
You only want to use the stuff for very large voids in the board, say major
fin gashes and such. The top of the gash/hole/whatever should be at least as
large as the bottom so that the foam can expand without making more
problems. This means it is absolutely the wrong stuff to use for delams and
the like...it makes them much, much worse, real fast.
There are some new house insulation foams, meant for retrofitting older
houses, which have a slower expansion rate and about a 2/1 foam volume/mix
ratio which would be better for surfboard repair. Haven't found anyone who
sells small quantities of it
Personally, I don't bother with the stuff, figuring it's more time, work
and trouble than it's worth.
Doc
----- Original Message -----
From: David Telep
Doc wrote:
They (glass rope segments at the base of a glassed-in fin) add zip for strength, by the way, just that as filler/resin holding
material they are nice because they hold resin and effectively disappear
when resin-saturated.
I assume the resin does add strength though so it's probably smart to
reinforce
the fins as they do. Funny thing, the manufacturer (Rusty) did not
reinforce
the twinzer fins at all. They did the larger fins but the angle between
the
twinzer fins and the bottom contains no reinforcement. Do you think this
is by
hydrodynamic design or simply to cut cost and should I reinforce both
twinzers
while I'm at it?
Actually, what holds the fins is the glass cloth that wraps up the fin and
onto the bottom of the board. But it won't easily make that sharp radius
bend /corner at the junction of the fin and bottom, hence the glass rope.
I'd add a very little to the inside corner and none to the outside corner,
if you call this side the outside / and this side the inside. Or to put it
another way, use some in the the acute angle (less than 90 degrees) and
don't bother with the obtuse (greater than 90 degrees) angle.
The short lever arm of the twinzer (it's not all that high off the board
bottom ) kinda eliminates the need for reinforcement. On the other hand, a
glassed in singlefin (big mutha) would need a lot.
Hydrodynamically, it really shouldn't make much difference in that corner,
as the roiled or nonlaminar flow there is gonna be turbulent anyways. I'd
leave the other fin alone though.
I cut the fin out to facilitate the drying of the foam. It came out
pretty
clean. There's no question about the angle set of the fin. The hole in
the
board pretty much determins that. I'll work up a jig to set the camber.
Awful hot here today..steamy after the rain last night.
Ah well, summer is here early
Doc...
Doc wrote:
Actually, what holds the fins is the glass cloth that wraps up the fin
and
onto the bottom of the board.
Thanks Doc.
One more thing (for now anyhow). Often when I mix a batch of resin (20
minutes
to the hard gel stage) and apply it to a hole, I get a concave dimple when
it
sets off often requiring another application to fill in the hole. Is it
my
breath or is my batch to hot/cold?
I add a little cabosil to the mix (and dust a little behind my ears...chicks
dig it) and wad it a touch thick instead of using straight resin. Sorta like
buttering bread, you know? You can then spread it in (a popsicle or 'craft'
stick is perfect) so it starts out faintly convex and finishes up just about
right.
From the sounds of it, you've got just about the right catalyst mix...20
minutes or so to hard gel is what I shoot for.
Hi Doc,
I set the fin this morning and it looks like its about 1-2 degrees off,
that is a degree or two closer to parallel with the large fin than it
should be. On the template, its hard to tell the difference. With a
sharp focused eye, I can see a slight difference between the two sides.
The angle off the stringer looks good. The question is, should I cut it
out and redo it or will the performance difference be negligable? I
want to make a decision before I glass it in. What do you think?
David
Tough call. If you have a fairly vicious sander, I might just leave it and
see if you notice any difference, then if you want to change it, just grind
away the glass and redo it. Personally, I doubt you'll notice anything at
all, but twinzers are funny critters. But I'd say that you're dealing with
two things:
a) are you gonna be able to get it any closer on a second attempt? This is
what I call the 'good as I'm gonna get it' point- where it's as close to
perfect as my tools are going to make it.
b) who knows, you may have improved it. Surfboard design is a funny thing
too- it's all empirical, cut and try. Changes might be for the better as
well as for the worse....
Doc...tomorrow is gonna be a crazy ding day around here; gonna try to get
about eight boards fixed: mass production. Heavy duty power tools...this
could get ugly.
Is that a weather front approaching or is that a cloud of resin dust
billowing
above Doc's shop?
You got it right there. I wonder what the folks who have me fixing their precious boards would think if they saw me applying my big sander
to
their boards.
You're quite a gunslinger Doc. I imagine you sport a wide brim hat and a
toothpick between you teeth as you wield that beast. Do you wear your
rawhide
chaps as you staddle those broncos? I just bet the chicks line up to see
that!
The thing about the big grinder/sander is that I'm in the ding biz to make a
buck or three; I've sucked up all the recreational resin fumes I want to.
Which in turn means I want to get the most done in the least amount of time.
Rationally, I know I can't rush the resin-hardening process, and glassing
itself is a hand operation that can't be rushed either. So, power sanders. I
use something like , uhm, six different power sanders ranging from the 8"
Milwaukee down to a 1/8 sheet air-powered random orbit job that is good for
wet sanding. The best all-around ding sander is, in my far from humble
opinion, the Porter Cable #7335
which will do it all, except wet sanding. I use one for 'coarse finishing',
now, though it was my do everything sander for a couple of years. As I got
more ambitious or, if you like, lazier, I started using more of the beasts.
They claim that with the variable speed feature it will do it all with one
grit size paper, though I alternate between 80 and 100 grit discs and can
get the dings feathered and ready to gloss quite nicely.
As to ding repair wear...and what the chicks line up to see...that's an
entirely different question....
Doc
To:
Sent: Friday, April 02, 1999 7:39 PM
Subject: Costa and de-lam
How much is that old board worth??
Cc:
Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: need info on dewey weber performer board.
Tony
A couple of questions
CHris"
A Busted Twinzer Fin and....
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 10:37 AM
Subject: a busted twinzer fin and ? for the doc
----- Original Message -----
From: David Telep
To: Doc
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: a busted twinzer fin and ? for the doc
Great Stuff...or is it
news:19990519122133.08837.00004178@ng-ch1.aol.com...
More on fin repair
To: Doc
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: a busted twinzer fin and ? for the doc
----- Original Message -----
From: David Telep
To: Doc
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: a busted twinzer fin and ? for the doc
----- Original Message -----
From: David Telep
To: Doc
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 1999 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: a busted twinzer fin and ? for the doc
----- Original Message -----
From: David Telep
To: Doc
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 1999 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: a busted twinzer fin and ? for the doc